O'Donoghue and Reid

Traced John back to 1915!

2009-05-20T11:02:00.000-07:00

As far as the crew lists go I know my grandfather left a ship called the Annie on the 13th of October 1913. The records are not in Canada or Kew so I will need to visit the British Maritime Museum which holds 1915 records.

When I was last researching this part of the family The BMM reading rooms were closed so my trail paused. There are always other branches to investigate!

The before picture

2009-05-14T01:32:00.000-07:00

It has occurred to me that should anyone see the photo of Paddy they would not appreciate the skill of Irene so here's the photo in it's original state.

This is one of Carol's versions.

13th May 2009

2009-05-13T14:18:00.002-07:00

It is ages since I have added to this blog, basically after being off work ill for ages I returned part-time and tried hard to make things work. Sadly they didn't and I have now resigned. Need to find a new job but in the mean time I am good at keeping busy. I enjoyed keeping the blog and will re read and fill in the gaps later.

Still enjoy searching out the family and spending time on the Forums, namely Rootschat and BBC Family History Forum. People there are very kind.

One of the"jobs" I decided to do was to clear out rubbish and tidy cupboards. Found lots of old Photos which had belonged to my Aunt Ciss and posted some for dating and restoring on Rootschat.-Amazed how many people are willing to spend their time restoring for other people and am very grateful to Irene, Carol, Wendy, Emjaybee, Bill and Carolyn for the pictures and Jim and China for help dating pictures.

The picture I chose to post is by Irene and is the first one of Paddy to be restored.

2009-05-13T14:18:00.001-07:00

At Last

2008-08-18T09:41:00.000-07:00

The first set of documents came Thursday, could wait on longer and set of for Kew on Friday. I have a busy few days ahead and was impatient. Sadly couldn't find my grandfather on Greenbatt in 1915 so I guess it's back to Canada. I spent Friday randomly looking though crewlists from 1915,but found nothing there are hundreds of them. I would see Dublin as a birthplace, heart would skip a beat, but no success. The cost to has Canadian lookups is not to expensive , travelling to NA at Kew for a day costs £15 pounds, but it is so much more rewarding to find information for yourself.

Waiting

2008-08-18T09:20:00.001-07:00

Am still watching the post for letters from Canada. OK, I know the one posted Monday won't be here yet, but the first letter with photocopies from Agnes Ellen Hasn't arrived yet. How long will I have to wait?

Information from Canada

2008-08-18T05:09:00.000-07:00

Above The Greenbatt

Well, I got a response to the Thelma really quickly and this time found out the names of two more ships my grandfather worked on, am now in 1916! It's slow work, but I am hoping thathe was still on the earlier ship Greenbatt at the end of 1915. All 1915 records are in UK. So will check out that possibility before requesting more research from Canada. I don't like the way my husband looks when I tell him I have spent more money on family history! And no, I do have to say or I feel guilty. To be honest it's so much more rewarding to find the information for myself.

Thelma

2008-08-15T11:56:00.000-07:00

I didn't mean to say yes to more research in Canada, was going to go to Kew first but I know I will have to check Thelma'a crewlist eventually so I have gone right ahead and am having the Liverpool Thelma checked. This can be an expensive hobby.

Agnes Ellen

2008-08-14T05:55:00.000-07:00

Well, went to archives and checked the Agnes Ellen crew lists for 1914 and 11. John Reid wasn't on the ship then. Interested to note she made quite a few trips to Dublin though. My grandfather was a labourer in 1911 Census, presumably at the docks in Dublin as he lived 5 minutes walk away. Maybe he sailed out of Dublin and was a dock labourer in between voyages. If he couldn't get much work on board ship from Dublin that may of encouraged him to move to Liverpool. I shall see what trade was like at Dublin docks in 1911!

Also had email from Canada, The ship he was on before Agnes Ellen was Thelma. There are 6 of those something else to research. The Canadian research cost me about 47 Canadian dollars. Haven't checked to see how much that is in sterling yet. Better do that!

£24 (rounded up to nearest £)

Just need to add another website where people have been very helpful.

www.shipsnostalgia.com/

Back to Kew

2008-08-12T00:26:00.000-07:00

Off to Kew to search for the military records of my husband's grandfather. It's new to me army searching. While I am there will look at the records for Agnes Ellen in 1914 and 1911 which are at Kew. Have pre-ordered them online so they will be waiting for me.

National Library and Archives Ireland (demolishing a brick wall!)

2008-08-11T07:30:00.000-07:00

The National Library in Kildare Street has many parish registers on microfilm. There are also very helpful staff to get you started. It was clearly explained to me how the cataloging worked and the system for collecting microfilms. The parish I was looking for was very well represented with birth and marriage certificates. I should be able to find my grandfather quite easily or so I thought. I looked through the relevant film more than once hoping to find a John Reid, son of Patrick and Mary but I couldn't. I came to the conclusion he wasn't baptised there, the annoying thing was that at GRO I hadn't been able to find him either. Didn't know where to try next.
www.nli.ie/en/homepage.aspx The website will tell you more of what is available at the National Library.

www.nationalarchives.ie The staff at the archives were also helpful and helped us find the correct references and microfilms we needed to view the 1901 and 1911(other than Dublin which of course is online) census. In order to search you need an address. The O'Donoghues were easily found on the 1901 census in the same house as 1911. I tried the address given by John Reid at the time of his marriage but no Reids were there.

On the morning of our departure from Dublin we went to Mass at St Andrews (interestingly it was in Irish). After mass saw a sign advertising look ups for 10 euros. I decided to see if the witnesses might be Reids with an address, the lady promised to look it up and send the information on to me in England.

Arrived home early hours of Saturday, by Monday letter arrived from Dublin. Opened it hoping for fresh information. As well as giving father's name it gave mothers, John was the son of Patrick and Kate Reid (both deceased)

I had spent ages trawling records for a John son of Patrick and Mary wrong name. It was so infuriating.

Online at Rootschat I was reminded that some Irish births were in Family Search. I looked and found John Reid son of Patrick Reid and Kate Clonley born in November 1879. there were no siblings but a Patrick Reid and Catherine Crowley had children who could be siblings if Kate Clonley and Catherine Crowley were one and the same person .

It would have to wait until I went back to Dublin. It was my husband who suggested I returned sooner rather than later. Two weeks later I was flying back with my son for company.

In the Parish records I found the baptism of John Reid in November 1879. There note to the side of the entry written in Latin. It seemed to be referring to his marriage in Oct 1909 to
Lucia O'Donoghue. I had found my Grandfather.

Unfortunately the Baptism did not give the maiden name of the mother. In fact the father's name was given as John. No wonder I didn't find it easily first time.

Were Clonley and Crowley the same person. I couldn't find any more children for Patrick and Katherine Clonley, but found a baptism for Christopher Patrick son of Patrick and Kate Crowley
in 1871.

I then decided to find the marriage between Patrick and Kate. There didn't seem to be one , although a Patrick Reid married a Catherine Regan on 1st May 1870. It was later when looking though my notes, I realised the address given at the time of Catherine Regan's wedding was the same as the one for Christopher's birth and baptism.

I went to the GRO and ordered a copy of the civil registration. Catherine, daughter of Christopher Regan was a widow at the time of her marriage to Patrick Reid.

So it seems Catherine Regan was Catherine Crowley ( her first married name?) I think she was also Catherine Clonley.

Canada!

2008-08-11T07:00:00.000-07:00

In the present and quite excited!
No I can't justify a trip there , more is the pity but have phoned and the Museum will do the research for me. The cost is cheaper than a holiday in Newfoundland.

General Records Office

2008-08-10T10:05:00.000-07:00

http://www.groireland.ie/research.htm

The website for the GRO. This site explains costs etc clearly. I found the staff friendly and helpful, as they were also in the Library and archives.

I was able to find some records very easily, my grandparents marriage, my parents marriage, births for Aunt Ciss and little Patrick. The Reids were more difficult, there just wasn't a John Reid born in South Dublin to a Patrick and Mary in 1878.
The marriage certificate told me the Church, St Andrew's in Westland Row and confirmed Patrick as his father. There were some new addresses too. Until this point I could not find Aunt Ciss in 1911, it was when I checked the address for Lucy at the time of her wedding I found Ciss and her father. The name, as I mentioned in a previous post, had been recorded as Odonoghue not O'Donoghue. The copy of my parent's marriage record gave me an address in England which my be useful tracking my father's time on the railway.
Found Grandmother's death too 23rd May 1919.

Dublin

2008-08-09T13:34:00.000-07:00

10th August

There were 3 places I needed to visit for family history reasons and then there were the art galleries and Blewleys Coffee Shop!

When I was little Mum and I were always taking Aunt Ciss into Blewleys. My Aunt loved their little trifles in rectangular waxed paper cases. The menus may have changed since the 1970's, but I certainly discovered a new favourite. On our first visit an older gentleman on the next table struck up a conversation; (quite normal in Blewleys, as least it always was when I was younger) he came in most days for a Baileys cheesecake. The next day I tried one it was delicious!

The places I needed to visit were the National Archives, National Library and the GRO at the Irish life centre.

Dublin Some Pictures

2008-08-08T14:32:00.000-07:00

I love going to Dublin and think the blog needs more pictures!

Tracing family history can take you back to places you remember from your past. I loved Dublin as a child, particularly the ducks at St Stephens Green. Dad tried rather unsuccessfully to teach me to roller skate there too.

Another thing that was strange was learning that in 1911, my grandparents lived a few doors along from the house where I visited my great aunt in the 1960's and 70's. The square looks much nicer now than it did 40 years ago. Oh, the person in the photo, deliberately looking the other way, that's me!

Another view of Pearse Square (in 1911 it was called Queen's Square). That's another issue with Irish family history many road and place names changed after independence. If the names prior to 1921 was very English it was probably changed.

What Next?

2008-08-08T14:15:00.000-07:00

I needed to contact Maritime Archives in Canada to find out about the Agnes Ellen.

I wanted to get a copy of my Grandparents marriage certificate which might tell me more about John Reid's parents. From the CWGC I knew they were Patrick and Mary and they were dead in 1918.

I thought it would be good to find his birth certificate too. I reckoned the dates on the crew lists would be most accurate he must have been born about 1878.

I might even be able to trace them in the 1901 census.

My husband had a week's holiday; our son was off to camp: we booked a trip to Dublin for four nights five days. My son was rather put out he would have liked to come to Dublin too.

2008-08-08T03:04:00.000-07:00

Back to the Archives

2008-08-07T15:33:00.000-07:00

Once I had found that my grandfather had been a seaman on the Mauretania I wanted to know more. Using the same process of searching crewlists I have discovered that he also served on the Carpathia and the Olympic. He joined the Olympic on 5th April 1917,prior to that he was on a much smaller ship called the Agnes Ellen those records are most likely in Canada.

The Agnes Ellen was a small steam ship which transported manganese or coal from the Porth Ysgo jetty in Wales to Liverpool. The other ships, were well know, and there is plenty of information online to tell me about them. I enjoyed reading a book called Hull Down by Sir Bertram Hayes. Not my usual choice of reading, but he was the captain of the Olympic and when he wrote of transporting Arthur Balfour to New York in April 1917, it seemed more interesting because I knew my grandfather was on that voyage.
History has always been an interest of mine , but it's more real when you relate it to your own relatives. Family History should be taught more in schools.

On subsequent visits to Kew I looked up the reports into the sinking of the Dwinsk. There were very bad storms while the men were in the lifeboats. That must have been when the seventh boat, the one with my grandfather was lost.

The National Archives A First Visit

2008-08-07T08:07:00.000-07:00

So I decided to go the following Thursday. The archives are open later on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Needed to take identification and proof of address to apply for a readers card. I would advise anyone planning a visit to check out website and find some document ref numbers online. You can order these in advance which saves time on the day. www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

I travelled by train to Kew Bridge. The first time I became rather lost before reaching the archives, but subsequently it took about 15/20 minutes to walk from the station. Cross the bridge, keeping to the left hand side, go past a green and then turn left at the traffic lights into Mortlake Road. Keep walking for about 5 minutes and the archives are in Ruskin Avenue, a turning to the left. Last time I went by car.

I found it all a little confusing first time I tried to order documents, but the staff showed me how to find the correct reference numbers for the crewlist I needed and after that I coped on my own.

Opening up pages which had been filled in 1918 was quite magical for me. I was very excited. The writing wasn't always clear and I looked though several times before I found John Reid but he was there. He had signed onto the Dwinsk on the 4th April 1918. His previous ship was Mauritania!

The men who drowned as result of the torpedo attack on the Dwinsk 18/ 6/ 1918

Finding out about Crewlists

2008-08-06T14:02:00.000-07:00

Most of the crew were lucky enough to be picked up by passing ships. Survivors being picked up by USS Siboney

I now knew my grandfather had died when the Dwinsk was torpedoed. I had searched the net, made contact with the descendants of a survivor and was sent some information by that gentleman. My grandfather was 40, 5ft 9 ins, with a tattoo of a ship on his left arm.

Strange, I thought he was 35 according to the CWGC, the 1911 census gave his age as 30 now another age. How could I be sure? I needed more proof.

Seamen signed on a ship for a voyage sometimes several. They signed the crew list to agree terms of pay and give personal details such as address and next of kin. The date they signed on and off the ship was recorded as well as their previous ship. I needed to see the crewlist for the Dwinsk. Had it survived the sinking? Where would it be?

For the year 1918 I discovered that 10% of the total are at Kew the rest are in the Maritime History Archive .... Newfoundland.

The crew lists are filed according to ships number a very very helpful website is CLIP (crew list index project) www.crewlist.org.uk/
The number I needed for the Dwinsk was 142312.

Where would it be? I searched The National Archives catalogue ....
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
They had a crew list for ship number 142312 for the year 1918. I needed it and decided to visit the NA. Fortunately I live in the neighbouring county.

Just in case someone reads this and is researching merchant seamen I would recommend the book My Ancestor was a Merchant Seaman by Christopher T and Michael J Watts. Published by Society of Genealogists ISBN 1-903462-51-7

Researching Irish Family History on the Net

2008-08-06T09:33:00.000-07:00

One of the best ways of finding out about sources for family history is to join a forum. I have joined a couple and the posters there have been wonderfully kind and helpful.

I like www.rootschat.com and the BBC history website. People on both these sites are friendly and welcoming.
There are source list threads on both the forums which are very helpful.

Family Search -www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp -has some Irish births.

The Irish Census for Dublin 1911 has been a fantastic source for me- www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ background information as well as the returns.

I found John, Lucy and little Patrick and learned their address, his occupation at the time, how long they had been married, how may children had been born and how many still living. I found Aunt Ciss with her father, but listed as odonoghue without the hyphen, BE WARNED TO CHECK ALTERNATIVE SPELLINGS

Another site which I have used is the IFHF at www.irish-roots.ie/ .
This is a pay per view site and I can spend a small fortune there very quickly.

Having said that I found several very useful transcripts there: my grandmother's birth; her parents' marriage; my great-grandfather's birth and others.

Some records in the British Archives at Kew are about Ireland and matters Irish
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
/podcast/tracing-irish-ancestors.mp3?pod=rss
is worth a listen.

My Grandparents John and Lucy Reid

2008-08-06T08:13:00.000-07:00

My Grandparents John and Lucy

So from the CWGC I discovered my grandparents address in Liverpool and that the ship upon which he was serving was SS Dwinsk. His parents were named as Patrick and Mary.

It was after I became unwell that I began to research the Dwinsk using the internet. She was torpedoed 400 miles of the coast of Barbados on route from Brest to America. The crew took to the lifeboats.The seventh lifeboat was lost, 24 men died including my grandfather.

I wonder when my grandmother heard the news. Some of the lifeboats were 10 days at sea. Did it take ages for the news to reach her? Did it send her into labour? How did she cope?

Family history is not just about dates, but people and the lives they lived. I needed to know more. The details of their lives, what was happening in the world around them.

To find out more I needed to branch out and visit the National Archives. It was there I could examine crewlists and try to find out more about the career of my grandfather.

My First Discovery Online

2008-08-06T04:27:00.000-07:00

I am enjoying this, blog writing. I wonder if anyone else will ever read it? Not that it matters it is for me. A year ago I couldn't have done this fear of criticism - now it doesn't matter.

Mum died in 1993, just two days before my son was born. I wish she had survived a little longer- would have liked a photo of them together. He would too, his sisters have that much. The older one may even have a few memories.

Mum always wore a ring with the word MIZPAH upon it. My father bought it for her in Dublin to replace the one she lost, not that it did. The original had been given to my grandmother by her seafaring husband. Mum wore the replacement until the day she died. On that day she took her rings off and pressed them into my hand. Now, I wear her MIZPAH ring constantly.

Mizpah is a Hebrew word, It means "God be with you until we meet again"

It was about six or seven years ago, that I was idly browsing on the internet. May have been around the time the 1901 Census came on line. It's not important, just sad that Mum was no longer alive. I saw a link to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and pressed the button. I knew John Reid, mums dad, was in the Navy. I knew he died before she was born in 1918. Perhaps he was listed.

He was quite easy to find. An able Seaman, merchant navy aged 35 date of death 18th June 1918. Just 3 short weeks before mum was born. I shook and tears rolled silently down my face.

Aunt Ciss

2008-08-06T03:03:00.000-07:00

This is Aunt Ciss, the photo was taken by Roe McMahon 11 Harcourt Street, 25 Sackville Street and 37 Grafton Street. Sackville Street tells me it was pre- independence, but would be interested to find out more about the photographer and date of photo.

Have been following an open learning course about interpreting early photographs, apparently early photographers followed the rules of portrait painters.
The portrait painters created ideals and disguised physical attributes that were less than perfect. They wanted to show the qualities of the inner person and encouraged thoughtful expressions.

This photo makes my Aunt seem quite tall, she was in fact tiny - no more than 5ft.

I wonder why she never married, was she just too busy looking after her parents in their old age. Her father was 75 in the 1911 Dublin Census. Then of course she would have her nieces to bring up. I like to think there was once a "beau".

What I knew, not a lot!

2008-08-05T16:17:00.001-07:00

The first thing to do when researching the family is to talk to people. I had left it too late , but this much I knew. Mary Bridget
( known as Ciss) O'Donoghue was born in Tralee in September 1881. She moved to Limerick as a small child, then to Dublin. Lucy, her younger sister and my grandmother married a sailor called John Reid, and went to live in Liverpool. Their first child , Paddy, a blond curly haired child died aged 2 years and four months in 1913. His picture hung on my aunt's wall , when I looked at it I could see myself. Years later I also saw a similar likeness to my own children.

After Paddy died a girl was born and in 1918 my mother, another Lucy. John Reid had drowned while his wife was pregnant . My grandmother returned home to Dublin and died in 1919. Ciss took the girls and brought them up. As a child I accepted the facts, as an adult, particularly a parent, I wonder at how and why she had care of them.I wanted to know why no contact was kept with the Reids. Aunt Ciss told me little of the past. My mother passed on a few stories. How the Black and Tans apparently upturned furniture in the the house and later how my Aunt tried to collect money for poppies in the early 1920's - that would have been at the time of the civil war. Not the most sensible course of action for my Aunt to take with a two or three year old in tow. The story my mother had been told suggested shots had been fired in their direction!

Mum was interested in finding out about her family and visited the General Records Office in Dublin, but back in the 1880's it was a difficult task - no internet . Mum died in 1993 knowing very little of her family history.

The Beginning

2008-08-03T14:42:00.000-07:00

August 4th

This blog is self indulgent , a place to record my thoughts as I trace my family. I am reaching out to the past and learning about people I did not have the opportunity to meet. Just in case anyone else should come across my ramblings, I will explain what I knew of my family and what prompted me to find out more. It may take a few posts to bring me up to the present day! Actually, I hope one day my own children may be interested enough to read this. At the moment they humour me and like me to have this hobby to keep me sane. More of that later.

I was an only child, my father the youngest in his family was 40 when I was born, in fact I was for a long time the only child in my extended family and quite spoilt by aunts, uncles and grown up cousins. I never met any of my grandparents. Dad's parents died before he married Mum. My mother's father had died before she was born and her mother when she was only ten months old.

I remember at primary school being asked to write about a grandparent, without much thought I started to write about the person in my life who was the nearest to a grandparent- Great Aunt Ciss. She was the spinster who at 38 years of age, in 1919, took on the two orphaned daughters of her younger sister.

I can still visualise the basement kitchen in which Aunt Ciss lived in the early 1960's . I remember not liking the dark, unlit room and beady eyed, stuffed birds staring out of the gloom. I didn't understand why my mum took me there to see a strange old woman who talked about dying all the time. As a three year old my great aunt frightened me. Of course I grew to love her,but never lost the fear of walking into her room and finding her dead. I spent many years worrying ; she in fact outlived my father and reached 100. I was 24 when she died.

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